Sorry that this is so long, but for those of you who wanted to read it, here it is!
Transcript of Q&A with Dean Magleby
Nov. 9, 2007
Dean: This meeting is primarily to address concerns and questions of the students. I’ve met with all of the faculty before, the full time faculty as well as the four faculty who help with supervision of the field. There are some part time faculty that I have not yet had a chance to meet with yet. The agenda will be to primarily answer your questions. Let me begin by commending you on your contributions on the Choose the Give campaign. It is extraordinary and you’ve set a new record. (Applause)
As virtually all of you in this room would know, the School of Social Work celebrates its 25 anniversary. I’m pleased that the administration accepted my recommendation that we retain a separate School of Social Work rather than to combine the school with the Sociology department as it once was or with the School of Family Life as was considered.
Now, I assume all of you received a copy of my letter dated Oct. 31. There was one mistake in that letter for which I apologize. LDS family Services and other human service providers do hire BSW students and it is likely that some of you would work for them. Our understanding was and is that LDS family services sees the MSW degree as the more critical degree because it qualifies those persons for clinical licensure. I want to begin by emphasizing that we are retaining the MSW in Social Work. There seems to some misimpression that this decision is somehow personal, reflecting some sort of anti-social work bias on my part. That is not the case. My daughter is completing her MSW at this very time as George Mason University. And my son is dating someone, not quite sure how that’s gonna work out yet, who is getting her MSW at the University of Michigan. Both my daughter and my son’s friend received their undergraduate degrees at BYU in the history department. MSW is an important degree for the church, for the community and for the world and I want you to know it’s important in my family. Social Work is a field that puts into motion so many of the gospel principles but that’s also true of this college, the college of Family, Home and Social Sciences.
There are many majors, undergraduate majors, in this college that achieve virtually the same objectives as the Bachelor’s of Social Work degree, so I want to make very clear this restructuring is not about some anti-social work bias. It’s rather about a set of decisions that in the judgment of college administration, and the university administration need to be made to strengthen our school of Social Work. For the school to thrive it needs a much larger pool of potential faculty. Universities do not exist without students and they do not exist without faculty and the unfortunate reality is that there are as I am told by the directors of the School of Social Work over the last six and a half years, at present 3 people getting PhD’s in Social Work outside of the University of Utah—three.
There are 4 people getting PhD’s in political science at the University of Michigan. We cannot run a school of Social Work without a pool of PhD trained faculty in Social Work and related disciplines. Therefore some dramatic changes were needed for that reason and for some others. We decided that the higher priority degree if we needed to prioritize and downsize in terms of staffing for at least a season was the MSW. I apologize for the timing of the announcement of the decision. I would have preferred for the announcement to have been sooner. For the two dozen or so of you who applied on or before Nov 1st, we have begun conversations with you individually on options that we very much want to work with you on. If your aim is an MSW as I think it is for many of you, the data we have collected is clear. You will not be disadvantaged in pursuing an MSW with an undergraduate degree in psychology, sociology, the school of family life, public policy, economics or anthropology.
If you’re aim is licensure as a social services worker, the SSW license, you can do that with a degree in psychology, family sciences or sociology as we will explain in this meeting.
Now I’m sure many of you have questions and that is what we’re here to spend our time on today. Before we do that let me introduce some people who are here today that may helpful to you in this transition. Laurie Seely is seated in the front and she’ll speak briefly to you about what advisement center is doing and will be doing to assist you. Emily Chaffin, would you please stand Emily, is the advisor in our college advisement center who has worked and will continue to work with Social Work. Steve Barr, seated in the front, is an associate dean and a professor of sociology. Elaine Walton is an associate dean and a professor of Social Work. Craig Hart is an associate dean who worked on this project is away at a professional meeting. He is a professor of marriage and family development in the school of family life. Now let me introduce Raberta Margerell who is the director of internships for the school of family life an area that where we are committed to increasing opportunities that was already a priority for the school and it is a priority for the entire college. Let me invite Laurie Seely now to describe what the advisement center has done to assist with the transition for those of you in the pre-BSW or for the BSW applicants.
Laurie: Good morning my name is Laurie Seely and I have the opportunity to serve students as the director of the academic advisement center in the college of FHSS. Many of you have met my colleague, Emily Chaffin as she was introduced today who advises school of Social Work and School of Family Life undergraduate programs. Though not involved in the decision making process regarding the BSW major, we support the college and university administration. We stand ready to assist students in their transitions to a new phase in their educational experience. Since receiving the announcement, about the restructuring of the school of Social Work and its impact on the BSW program we have been actively involved in finding ways to facilitate the decision making that many of you face at this time. Emily has already met with several BSW students who are currently enrolled in the program to develop a 2-year graduation plan. She has also contacted students in the Fall 2007 applicant pool by email encouraging them to meet with her and/or other advisors in our center to discuss a variety of ways that the goal of becoming a licensed social services worker can be achieved with other majors that are in our college. Several of these students and other pre social work majors have visited with Emily and reports are that they have left her office feeling much better about their academic goals and possible inter-transitions. Some students have found that they can actually change their major and by doing so graduate sooner and apply for an MSW graduate program or pursue other career opportunities earlier than anticipated. We have worked closely with the school of family life, the departments of psychology and sociology to establish how Soc 112 and Social Work 200 can be counted to fulfill course requirements in their respected majors. As explained in the handout given to you while you entered the auditorium all three departments have graciously agreed to accept these courses as substitutes for required elements in their field. This means your time to graduate in these majors will not be delayed by changing your major to one of these programs at this time. Additional courses that students may have taken to prepare for the BSW application process like psychology 342 or PD Bio 205 can be used to fulfill GE requirements at the university and a possible use of these courses in other majors like family life, and psychology and sociology can be discussed with an appropriate advisor in our center. Emily as mentioned earlier (introductions of psychology and sociology advisors). Each of these advisors are prepared to meet with you as you consider your educational options and new opportunities while preparing to apply to MSW graduate programs. We have expanded our advising hours to assist you with your needs and Emily has opening for appointments even this afternoon.
Academic advisors have open times tomorrow as well as next week, dedicated specially to meeting with social work students and pre-social work majors. If you are considering other career options at this time, Craig who advises sociology majors is also trained in career advising and he has opened up time specifically for career planning sessions that students can attend if they want to consider other counseling vocations or career opportunities. And finally we have also developed an assessment of BSW majors and by which courses these students will need in order to complete their degrees in the allotted time frame. This report has been given to the college admin. To assist with planning future curricular offerings and to help them avoid what’s known as a bottleneck effect in courses being taught. The mission statement of FHSS college advisement center is that we will guide students to gain greater vision and perspective thus empowering them to achieve their personal and professional potential. Please come to our offices in the basement of this building and visit with one of our advisors do exactly what this statement says. We are eager to help you discover the many ways that this is possible with this new window of opportunity that has opened for you. Thank you.
Dean: In case there is some misunderstanding we are not I want to emphasize encouraging any of the persons who have been admitted to the limited enrollment BSW program, to change their majors. We are not encouraging you to do that, we are happy that you are happy in your major as many of you are telling me in your emails. And we encourage you to go about finishing that major and we commit to you that we will continue to offer the courses that are required for the BSW and we will continue to offer the field practicum experience that is required for the BSW for a period of at least two years and perhaps longer if needed. That’s why we have done the analysis on what courses each of you in the program still have to go. I am aware that there are some who are serving missions, we will accommodate those returning missionaries. You’ve invested in a limited enrollment major, you’re well into a major and we want you to finish that major. Now we do hope as I am going to explain in a moment that some of you may catch the bug while you’re doing that and decide to go for an MSW, and even some of you perhaps still go on for a PhD’s so that we can expand this pool of potential future faculty to strengthen and enlarge our school of Social Work.
The time is now yours for your questions. I invite you to que up at the two microphones we will alternate back and forth. We invite you to please just state your name before you hit your questions so I can try and remember you and interact with you in that way. On all the hard questions I may pass them to my associates’ dean colleges but this is a time for us to answer your questions. So if you would just start q-ing up.)
Craig Boyle: Why were not the students, faculty, and agencies involved in the decision to disband the BSW degree?
Dean: Well umm. They were in indirect ways, there are reports that are given to deans and the central administration on an ongoing basis, there was an external review done of the School of Social Work in which students were interviewed. There was data being collected over the last several years. The process in this case was done in this way because it was deemed to be the best way to manage this process by both me and the central administration. So, it was a choice and it was a process that we undertook in that way for that reason.
Craig: Which students? Because, personally for myself I know of no students that have actually been interviewed.
Dean: Well they were interview during the last review which was about a year ago and there were a panel of MSW and BSW students interviewed as part of the normal ongoing reviews of departments. Those reviews pointed in the direction at least in part of what we are recommending.
Karrissa Garr: I was wondering if this decision was at all based on student outcomes?
Dean: Um, it is not largely about students I think it’s fair for you to say in the sense that our major concerns here are about maintaining and sustaining a strong program and having sufficient faculty in the pipeline so that we can keep a strong school. As I did the research on uh, the stronger programs, there are about a dozen of them that we thoroughly researched, uh, speaking with admission officers at Columbia and Michigan for example, I learned that uh, there is really no value added for a BSW when applying for a MSW or a PhD at Columbia or Michigan. That was clearly a part of the decision and recommendation here to, essentially recognize that we could serve future MSWs and PhDs in social work just as well out of psychology, sociology, family sciences and public policy as we are doing with the current BSW major. So students were very much a part of the consideration and it was about what was in the best interest of the students’ long term. And by…, my view is having a strong school of social work isn’t in the best interest for the students, long term.
Natalie Marrett: Given the time and the energy and the money that pre-BSW students have put into applying for Nov 1 why is it not possible for them to be the last applicant pool accepted into this program, and would it be possible for them to be considered, considering they have gone through the initial process already?
Dean: We are evaluating that, uh, it is a matter under review, I can tell you that much. We apologize, as I said, I apologize for the lateness of the announcement, and frankly, that wasn’t my call, but that was the decision. I recognize that put 24 of you in some difficulty; um we have analyzed all 24 of you and as Miss Sealy just explained this will not delay time for graduation for all but one of you. That’s what the data that are on the golden sheets that you’ve got in your hand show you. Now, with respect to career opportunities, it’s also our clear view that you can do a social service worker program with a psychology, sociology or family sciences major. You can get licensure if you put your hours in on the job while being paid, that’s a difference from most of the BSW internships. Uh, and so I see that there is really little direct negative effect for all but one of the 24. But it is something we’re looking at because we are concerned about the lateness of the announcement.
Natalie: Do you know when you’ll be done with that consideration?
Dean: It’s a matter that, I…As I said, it’s under review. I hope it will be soon.
Justin Thang: BSW Student. Last week when I was at my internship I was informed by my internships supervisor about the discontinuation of the program. I felt very disrespected to find out that way. Why did you choose to send a mass email to all the faculty and students, rather than have a formal meeting?
Dean: Well, uh, we didn’t send out a mass email. We sent you and every BSW student we knew of a letter to the address that is on file.
Justin: Which a lot of people haven’t received yet. Last week we received an email.
Dean: You did because that was sent at the same time. Uh, and the plan was to do it after I had met with each of the faculty and the faculty meetings were all schedules on last Wednesday. We wanted to send out the message after each faculty member had the courtesy of hearing it from me one on one in my office. Unfortunately someone chose to email everyone, including all the BSW students at midday on that day. So that courtesy was denied us by someone else.
Justin: Who did that?
Dean: I am going to choose not to comment on that.
Justin: Was it part of your office?
Dean: No, it was not part of our office. I am not responsible for everybody that works in this college. (Applause). Why don’t we limit it to one question per person please. Next question.
Suzette Allred: BSW student. I just want to say thank you for taking this time to meet with us and clarifying some things. [My question has to do with, … you addressed the issue, that we can, people who…, for future students who …possibly for people who have applied for the fall they can get a social service worker license, and I guess my main concern is that the social work program here at BYU, the main crowd of the population that serves, there are males, but the main population is Mormon females, and that’s just the population that serves in majority. Most Mormon females by statistics don’t go on to get a Masters degree. And I believe in continuing education, I have applied to several schools for masters’ degree, but with sociology and psychology, you can get a social services license but it is…, social work is the most marketable social service major that you can get. So I just fear that having… (Applause). I just fear that having taken away the social work major will make it much more difficult for LDS mothers, females LDS members to get a job, because Social Work is…, you graduate and get a job directly. And psychology and sociology it is more difficult, and there is nothing wrong with that, it is just by nature it is more difficult to get a job. And so I am just…, How will you address that especially since this is a private university for LDS people and we have other direction to go on to be mothers and we really need a marketable job if we are going to need to get a job some time in our life.
Dean: Well, uh, I am sensitive to that and I guess that I would say that this is a college that has departments with very similar ratios. MFHD is virtually indistinguishable on demographics from the School of Social Work. And so, this is not the only major in this college, in fact it is typical in this college, so the dynamic you’re talking about is not exclusively a BSW phenomenon, and we applaud you and other men and women in the college pursuing degrees. The answer is that you can do the same kind of services with a license in the social services, which you can secure after one year of work, taking the same exam with no additional courses. It is the same exam by the way that BSWs have to take. And so to us, that trade off, that says if we have to downsize the school of social work, and we have to downsize because we do not have the pool of available faculty in the pipeline. Then we’ll downsize the degree that we can substitute a near equivalent. I understand there are some advantages, I agree there are some advantages, but it’s a near equivalent and close enough that we think that can meet the need that you have addressed. Now, we also think this is a way for the whole college to get better. So this about trying to get better which is very much what BYU is also about. I think this will help strengthen sociology, psychology, MFHD and others within the school of family life. Because I think this will push them and push us to expand the number of internship opportunities. So Roberta Magarrell would you please join me for a minute, would you explain to this student how students in your program, the school of family life have gotten social service worker certificates.
Roberta: Well I wasn’t even going to even just answer that. Ok, um, what they’ve done is, they picked an internship that’s related to uh, what you’re doing. From having worked there they got information on how to take that exam, they studied for that exam, they have taken that exam, and they have been able to apply their hours that they have used during that internship, plus then adding on the other hours when they are working in relationship to getting that certification.
Dean: So have student from the school gotten that certification, license?
Roberta: Yes, they have. Um, but I was also going to add in terms of something else that she says, that the type of field experience that you take if you are going in to one of these other majors will definitely open the doors for you to get the same kind of jobs that you’re getting with just your B, uh…BS…BSW? So, uh, I’ve seen that happen.
Jonathan Strange: My question is, why wasn’t this done more professionally like for example. (Applause). An example would be giving faculty and students and possible students enough time to apply to other programs or other schools instead of doing it the day before applications were due? And if you think it’s professional please explain to me why.
Dean: Well as I said I apologize. I wish this could have been announced earlier. It was under a serious review for 6 months, it was under review for years. Uh, there were a range of options.
Jonathan: That was not the question
Dean: I am on my way to answer it and the answer is, uh, given all the data that we had gathered before, it was our view that we needed to move as quickly as possible to try to send a clear signal about the importance of strengthening this program. And we also want to do, what exactly what we’re doing today. Which is to make sure that every applicant and every pre-BSW student is given full notice and there is no delay in time to graduation. And we just told you there will be no delay in time for graduation for all but one of the 2-dozen students who applied for the BSW by November first.
Melissa: I seem to be hearing a lot about the data that you have acquired and all the research that you have done. If I were to write a paper and say, "I just have data and research," that would not be sufficient. (Applause). And I want to know where is the data coming from and when are you going to provide that information, the research that apparently hasn’t been done, because there are students here who are from that degree and have not recollected any questions that have been asked to them or any data that has been acquired from them. So what sources do you have? Where is your data coming from?
Dean: Happy to answer that. The first and foremost measure for a dean in trying to judge the quality of a program is the faculty. Data on faculty come from the following sources. I meet with the director of the School of Social Work monthly, have for six and a half years. One of the questions I ask ritually every month when I’m with him or her is how many of the faculty are pursuing PhDs in your program that you know of. It is the charge of the leaders of academic programs in this college and the whole university. I myself report on that to the central administration. I told you already the number, 3.
Melissa: But that’s the only number you’ve given.
Dean: No, no, I am giving…, please that’s just one. I’ll give you other numbers.
Melissa: When that will be provided? Because it is very general. Everything that you have been saying, data that’s been acquired, there has been no, there has been no email with the data that you have been saying that you have. And I am just saying, if you know anything about citing your sources, those sources have not been cited. So there is no way for us to be able to sufficiently know what you are talking about to understand what you’re saying if there is no data that you’re providing.
Dean: May I answer? Why don’t we have the ground rule that you ask one question and I’ll answer it, we now have a dozen people at each microphone. So I am going to answer your question. The question is the following. With respect to faculty I also said tell us about the best programs. Who did I ask that question to? I asked it to the executive director of CSWE, Julia Watkins. I asked it to other social work faculty, including the director of our program, my associate dean, a former director of the social work program. I have a sense of what the 12 to 15 schools are that are widely seen as the #1, #2 and #5 programs. Everyone agrees, that I’ve talked to, that Michigan is by far the #1 program in social work. So having gotten that information I set about to learn about those programs. I have visited them in person in some cases. I’ve talked to others on the phone and gathered some of the data that I’m sharing with you. I also went to the website because the CSWE keeps a website. I can tell you that 27% of social work programs in the United States do not offer a BSW. I can tell you the number of programs that do not offer…, (can we get someone to help with this microphone), and uh, and someone, uh, the number of programs that have PhD only and so forth and so on. We’ve looked at a range of programs because we said, if we’re doing this, what would the implications be for us. We evaluated the graduation requirements at this and other programs. We evaluated the extent to which programs were interdisciplinary by looking at the appointment processes of some of those programs that we aspire to be more like. So there’s an example of the kinds of data we gathered on faculty. On students we worked with the advisement center to see the number of applicants, the number of people being admitted, the size of the program. We looked at the size of this program over time. When it went from no BSW to BSW. When we doubled the size of it from an MSW of 20 a year to an MSW of 40 a year. We researched all the curriculum requirements in this program, what was done with respect to research expectations. And because the core course in social work on the methodology and statistic side is so critical we researched how other schools of social work teach methods and statistics. So, there is just a sample of some of the data. Now, again we are going to have one question.
Melissa: You just haven’t said where you will provide the data, that was my original question.
Dean: I just provided the data. Go to the CSWE websites, you’ll get the list of programs, you can download it. I told you which programs I visited with and spoke with in person. Question over here.
Britt Taufer: I have a pre-BSW concern. It’s been said that you have analyzed the applicants that have already turned in their applications and there is 2-dozen or so of those. There are several of us that have not submitted applications because of things such as GE’s they wanted to get taken care of before submitting for this upcoming fall and/or the knowledge that they were stopping the application process. So, some of us had those underway and have not yet submitted. Will you be willing to review those applications?
Dean: When did you learn that we were stopping the application process?
Britt: We just learned the day before.
Dean: Did that stop you from applying?
Brit: There were some people that held their application back.
Dean: Well I just wanted to make sure. That is information to me. This is a two way exchange of information friends. I’m learning while you’re learning. Uh we have looked at the people who were pre-BSW and have tried to assess what this would do in terms of time to graduation. Laurie, do you want to help answer that?
Laurie: Anyone who was pre-social work major was part of our analysis also. And part of our negotiation with sociology, psychology, MFHD was to make sure that your programs, the courses that you’re taking will still count in those three. So we were actually looking at you in that major also as part of our assessment.
Dean: Whenever a program is discontinued it’s painful. And I apologize. It will help us create a school of social work that will remain, and contain and sustain. I think you can do just as well in the other majors we have mentioned. And if your long-term goal is a social service worker license we’ve talked about how you can do that. And if your long-term goal is an MSW I think you’ll actually have an advantage in getting into the strong programs if you have a degree in those other majors.
Megan Perkins: 1st Year MSW. Were you able to consult with the community agencies? With the variety of community agencies that I’ve talked to in the last week or so they’ve expressed to me that getting a major in a psychology, sociology, MFHD etc etc and getting your license as an SSW is not people that they prefer to hire. And it is not people they really particularly get a good retention rate with because a lot of them don’t complete the service hours that they need to do and therefore they choose not to hire those individuals. Have you considered the agencies preferences in discontinuing the BSW program? (Applause).
Dean: The answer is yes. We have met with 5 of the agency heads and talked though the very issues you’ve raised and um, and there is a preference for the BSW students in the current model. But they’re working with us and working with you to expand the internship opportunities to psychology, sociology, school of family life. With placements for people who will work in the same positions as these are later vacated by the graduating BSW students so yes it was considered. But the university is not primarily here to meet the staffing needs of any particular sector of the economy. We are here to educate you to the best of our ability in the strongest possible way. And that’s what this is all about. Next question.
Shannon Sorenson: First year MSW. A concern that I have involves several issues. One is moral and the other is the idea of encouraging students to come back for their doctoral degree, in association with the level of moral. The reconstruction plan includes our social work faculty being given joint appointments in the other departments, but giving those appointment without voting rights in those departments. Additionally, that the benefits to the other departments will be that our professors will take over courses like psychology 111, sociology 111, sociology 112, and I’m just not sure what sort of confidence we’re supposed to have in our current professors if that is how the university sees them, as not worthy of voting rights also worthy of teaching courses that frankly I am qualified to teach and in another university might be teaching. Additionally and along those same lines, should I go on for my doctorate? I’m not sure that I would want to come back to a university that puts so little value in the professors.
Dean: Well the answer is, uh, the current school is not working with respect of developing a pool of potential faculty. I have been asking this question for 6 years and it’s not gotten better. The status quo is not an option. Therefore, we considered other options. This is the option that kept a separate school of social work with the critical degree the MSW. That is the program to which I am confident we will later be able to recruit and retain a strong faculty. Now, with respect to that, when a university discontinues a program those faculty members could be terminated in employment. We’re not doing that. We don’t want to do that. We think these people have valuable contributions to make. We think they can help teach and by the way, spread the good news of social work, into the other departments. Let me give you an example. You had a visitor in your department Lorrain Gutierrez. Professor Gutierrez is an associate dean of the University of Michigan Social Work. She and I had talked previously and we talked a second time while she was here, because as you can tell I have been trying to learn more about schools like Michigan. Professor Gutierrez, as with all social work faculty at Michigan, teach at least one class a year in an undergraduate program or graduate program outside of that school. Professor Gutierrez teaches in Psychology at the 300 level, junior year. I said to her, "How does that work?" She said, "It’s great. It’s a field I’m interested in and it gives me a chance recruit strong students who haven’t previously thought about doing social work into social work." So one of the benefits about what we’re doing is we’re going to spread the vision of what you all do and aspire to do much more broadly in the college.
But there is a second purpose here, which you alluded to in your question. We want to have the school of social work at BYU be more interdisciplinary. One of the findings from our research is that the stronger programs are much more interdisciplinary than our program currently is. So at Michigan for instance, there are several faculty who have joint appointments and teach in the school of social work. I met when I was in Ann Arbor with a professor named Ann Lynn. Professor Lynn is a political scientist and she got her PhD from Chicago. I said, "What are you teaching in the school of social work?" She said, "I teach one course every year, every year, a graduate course on qualitative methods." Professor Lynn is a renowned scholar in my field and she was gracious to give me what was to be an hour and ended up 2 ½ hours. But what I learned was this cross-fertilization will greatly strengthen our program. So yes, there will be some faculty who will have joint appointments in social work. And that is going to, I think, substantially benefit the school of social work as we go forward. It is our expectation by the way that we will do open houses over the next 18 months that you all will be invited to. Especially you BSWs, but all of you MSWs as well as I think about it with the top 12 dozen programs or so from around the country. We’ll invite Michigan back.
When I met with Mrs. Lynn she said to me, "Dave, why is it that we don’t have a BYU student in our PhD program?" I said, "That’s why I’m here. Why is it?" She said, "I’m puzzled. When I was in my PhD program at the University of Chicago, there were two return missionaries in my cohort." That means the same year she was admitted, and she could tell me exactly which mission both of them had served, which part of the world. That’s how memorable her association was with these other two Latter-day Saints. She said, "You know, in our department of Political Science at Michigan we have Alan Hicken who is a return missionary. You know, when you apply to Michigan," she says, "When you tell your students about applying to Michigan be sure they mention their missionary experience, because we would greatly value that, it is actually a part of the form." She says, "You guys do 18 months to 2 years. Most of our applicants do 6 months to a year in an inner city church or some other place." We have a lot of potential in this room and in this program. But, by the way, my daughter was in History and she’s getting an MSW. We’re not going to limit it to just the BSWs or the MSWs. We’re going to try and spread the word to the whole college. I expect that over the course of the next 5 years you will see a significant uptake in the number of BYU graduates from this college who pursue MSWs as a result of this restructure. Next question.
Tricia Tanner: A tenured professor cannot be fired. However, when the program they are under is closed and they are placed in another program they are vulnerable to termination. Numerous sources, including from other social science departments say that closing the school is an attempt to get rid of a few social work faculty. Are you really closing the school to make these specific professors vulnerable so that they can be terminated?
Dean: No. Next question. (Crowd noise). Oh, well okay, let me give you the rest of the answer. Why would I have gone through the work of finding other assignments for them? And apply logic, I don’t have a pool of people to hire in their places. So no, we’re not gonna do that.
Emma Jones: 1st year MSW. I graduated last April with one of the most marketable bachelor degrees and that is the BSW program. My question for you is how is cutting the BSW program going to increase the number of PhD applicants?
Dean: Because we’re going to get involved with more departments and we’re going to encourage more departments to consider going on for PhD’s.
Student: Can that not be done at the Bachelors level as well as a Masters level?
Dean: It could be. We do not have the faculty in the pipeline to sustain the current level of the School of Social Work.
Student: What do you mean by pipeline?
Dean: People in their first, second, third or fourth year of PhD work. There are 3 people, in total, at any stage outside of the University of Utah and by the way we’re hoping to have a more diverse faculty in our faculty. At present, of our 7 faculty of social work, excuse me, of our 11 faculty of social work, 7 have their terminal degree from BYU or the University of Utah. We want to have faculty here from Columbia, Washington University, St. Louis, Michigan and so forth and so on. We have some, we need more. So we want to aim higher as we try and build this faculty pool. Next question.
Fred Brewer: In all sincerity…
Dean: I didn’t catch the name
Fred Brewer: Fred Brewer
Dean: Still didn’t catch it…one more time
Fred Brewer: Fred Brewer, and why are our names important? Why are you taking down names? (Laughter).
Dean: It’s a courtesy; I prefer to interact with you by name. You know my name, I don’t know your name. As you saw with Suzette I invited an associate, or assistant dean, or director of advisement to come and speak to Suzette. I’m not tracking you. I promise. (Laughter)
Fred: I was just curious and I wanted to say we do appreciate you holding this meeting and being able to answer our questions. (Applause). One of the extremely valuable assets to obtaining a BSW degree is the opportunity to have advanced standing in many other universities across the country and being able to obtain that BSW here with the gospel perspective is incredibly valuable to all of us. (Applause) Which we will not be able to attend at a majority of the other universities in Utah and across the country. With that and with the opportunity for advanced standing for BSW students from BYU, and even some universities holding placements and scholarships for BSW graduates giving credit to the competency and excellent work of both the students and the faculty in the school of social work, how can a degree transferring over to a degree in another social science major offer the same value?
Dean: Well it doesn’t. There is no way to say that in any other way (Applause). Now, having said that, I’m going to tell you that I have it on good authority that you’ll have a better chance of getting into schools like the ones I have mentioned if you focus on a strong methodological core in a rigorous discipline, and those are some of those I’ve mentioned. I would urge you to aim high. I think there are plenty of opportunities and plenty of options. I would further add that we have not chosen to have an advanced standing degree at BYU and that I think is with good reason. I think that when you look at the data there is a correlation between quality of program and whether they have advanced standing options.
Candice Gonzales: I’m curious first of all if you have read the licensure rules from the Council of Social Work?
Dean: I have read the accreditation document, is that what you mean?
Candice: Yes, I am curious then, are you concerned at all that by reconstructing the program and having teachers teach in various other programs that we will loose accreditation for the Masters program?
Dean: No, I am not concerned. We need 6 full time equivalents to have the MSW program we now have with 40 students.
Candice: Correct, that are primarily teaching in the social work program
Dean: No, primarily, but not exclusively. We are clearly going to have six, we now have eleven. So, just to show you, how far beyond the CSWE minimum we are we are nearly double what the CSWE minimum would be for an MSW, so I am not worried about that particular issue with respect to accreditation. Accreditation is and will be a major concern of ours. That’s why I went to Washington D.C. and met with Ms. Julia Watkins, the executive director of CSWE, subsequently called her on the phone to make sure I understood the exact kinds of rules you are now asking me about. I am confident that we have protected the integrity and reputation of this program in what we are doing.
Kelly Winchester: BSW student. I spoke to the Admissions Department of Columbia University this morning and there definitely is an advantage to a BSW and I would consider Columbia University, the number one ranked by Princeton Review, that it is a quality program. So, I beg to differ with you.
Dean: Well I spoke with other people at Columbia and they didn’t tell me what this person told you. So, we ought to do a poll there maybe and get the right answer.
Kelly: I am obviously a mature student and have spent many years in the workforce. For the last six years, prior to getting into this program I worked in the medical mental health field. I was in a position of management and I hired many, many people underneath me. I had the opportunity to look at applications and resumes from many people. I frequently had people who had undergraduate degrees in social science: sociology, psychology, and marriage and family therapy and other degrees applying to work at my facility. I could offer them 45 cents over Oregon’s minimum wage and hire them. When BSWs came to be hired I would check their references and call them back. I never, ever, in 6 years was able to hire a BSW student, because before I got to them they had always received another offer, offering them $4-$8 more an hour than I could pay them. Given that this is a trend all over the United States, how can you say that these other undergraduate degrees are equal to a BSW?
(Applause).
Dean: They will be within one year. That is one of the questions we confirmed in our most recent meeting with the providers in Utah and they will be within one year at the same pay scale.
Kelly: Which providers may I ask?
Dean: I don’t know that I’m at liberty to share the names. We’ve had meetings with them. I would have to get their permission before I named them in a meeting like this. Let’s take one more question. I know that classes are going to be coming in here.
Megan Holgate: By the way, those providers were shaking their heads.
(Applause).
Dean: Well, we can have a colloquy or a question. You get to pick.
Megan Holgate: I am a 2nd year MSW student, so I have different concerns, because this doesn’t directly affect me. I just want to state that social work is a value. Social workers are sensitive to cultural and ethnic diversity and strive to end discrimination, oppression, poverty, and other forms of social injustice. This may be in form of direct practice, community organizing, supervision, consultation, administration, advocacy, social and political action, policy development and implementation, education and research and evaluation.
Social work is a very unique field in specialization and as an MSW student, BYU has one of the best clinical MSW programs in the nation.
Dean: It has a strong program.
Megan Holgate: Yes, everyone knows that. What has prepared me to be a strong social worker is my BSW. And I have people here that can recognize that and that know that I’m a great clinician and it’s because I have a BSW. I have a degree in Psychology. It does not prepare me as well as my social work degree. (Applause). So, my question would be, how are you going to take those values of social work and apply them to other departments without showing the value of having a BSW degree?
Dean: Well, the answer is I do think that social work serves many important functions. You actually asked three or four questions. Social work serves many important functions, uh, I thought I made it clear that I see it that way in my own family and I certainly see it in my own life. My father is in a care center and I’m grateful that there’s a social worker there. I could rattle of a number of interactions. My only grandson was born very prematurely, there’s a social worker at Utah Valley that helped my son and daughter-in-law. I mean, you have a tremendous impact for good, but I want to make sure you understand something important: It is not your exclusive problems. There are others in this college and at this university outside this college who care just as deeply about human services as you do and provide wonderful services as well. This is about trying to strengthen the school of social work so we can sustain it into the future and that’s what this is about and that’s what we’re trying to do. Cole wanted to make an announcement and then we’ve got a class coming in.
Cole: Obviously there are a lot of questions that still need to be answered and graciously the Dean has accepted that you can email him your questions I guess is what I’m trying to say.
Dean: If you haven’t already
Cole: So, if you are in line and didn’t get a chance to express your question please email the Dean.
Unknown Individual: But will you respond, because I have emailed you and you have not responded.
Dean: I am getting about 10 responses written a day. So, depending upon the volume it may be three or four or five or six days, but I will get back to you.
Cole: Great, thanks everyone.
(Applause).
We came home to our new apartment that we had not moved into yet. Oh joy! So we spent a few days running around collecting things that we needed and putting everything together. This is just one picture of the front room, but we like it a lot. Its cute and cozy.
We also went to Manti to see the Manti Pageant and to stay with Devin's parents for a night. I had never been to Manti at all, let alone the pageant. It was actually pretty entertaining, I just had a hard time keeping my eyes open. This was our best attempt at getting a picture of us and the temple. 
The Fourth of July was spent in Provo and down in Fairview, where Dev is from. It was the first fourth that I can remember missing the big parade and fireworks show along the river in I.F. I was pretty sad, but oh well. Nobody believed Kylee and I when we kept insisting that the fireworks there were far better than any we could see here. Nobody believed us, but its the truth. The Stadium of Fire ones were pretty pathetic in comparison, I'd say. Good ol' I.F.
The biggest event of the summer was my Strobel Family Reunion in upstate New York. About half of my extended family was able to make it up there to see all the sites and to have some good old fashioned quality family time. Devin was introduced to many of my family members that he had never met, needless to say, I think that was an overwhelming experience for him. We saw Niagara Falls, which you can see below. It was absolutely beautiful. We also saw all the church sites, including the Joseph Smith farm and the Sacred Grove. A few of us woke up really early one morning and went and did a session in the Palmyra Temple, which was an incredible experience. They have an open window there that overlooks the Sacred Grove. It was really a special thing to be able to see. We were also able to see the Hill Cumorah Pageant, which was a HUGE production. I am going to have to say that the Hill Cumorah Pageant is a little bit better than the Manti one. Okay, A lot. We finished up by spending a day at a waterpark. It was a good little getaway and tons of fun.
